* The official figure for the number of Russian soldiers who died in
Chechnya between 1999 and mid-2003 is 4,705 - though the Soldiers'
Mothers of Russia organisation put the figure at 11,000.

* Thousands of Russian troops remain in Chechnya - some 38,000 were
entitled to vote in a March referendum on a constitution for the
republic - only a tiny fraction have been withdrawn.

* There are few places where they can feel totally safe. A missile
attack on a helicopter in August 2002 killed 116 - the heaviest Russian
casualty toll in a single incident since the start of the second Chechen
war in 1999.

* Their estimate for the first Chechen war, which lasted from 1994 -1996
is 14,000 dead, compared with the official 5,500. Civilian deaths in
this war are numbered in the tens of thousands.

* More than 250 people went missing in Chechnya in the first half of
2003, according to a member of the pro-Moscow government

* Another government official was quoted as saying that 1,178 people had
been killed in the first nine months of 2002, and that 654 people had
disappeared.

- From "Russia's suicide bomb nightmare",
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3020231.stm


"Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at their
neighbours."

Stop SPAM > wrote in message >...
> * The official figure for the number of Russian soldiers who died in
> Chechnya between 1999 and mid-2003 is 4,705 - though the Soldiers'
> Mothers of Russia organisation put the figure at 11,000.

Why not 110000? These "mothers" are such mothers as I am Rome pope.

>
> * Thousands of Russian troops remain in Chechnya - some 38,000 were
> entitled to vote in a March referendum on a constitution for the
> republic - only a tiny fraction have been withdrawn.

According to the russian law. Those one motorized division and
VV brigade will stay there on the permament basis, as it was
in USSR, and certainly servicemen will have all their civil
rights, including rights to vote as everybody else.

>
> * There are few places where they can feel totally safe. A missile
> attack on a helicopter in August 2002 killed 116 - the heaviest Russian
> casualty toll in a single incident since the start of the second Chechen
> war in 1999.

Those were certainly included into official numbers.

>
> * Their estimate for the first Chechen war, which lasted from 1994 -1996
> is 14,000 dead, compared with the official 5,500. Civilian deaths in
> this war are numbered in the tens of thousands.

Now 14,000? wat 11,000 just a moment ago? As for civilan casulaties
there were many no doubts but as far as I understand there is no
reliable data on that matters. Despite of empty propaganda talks recent
census showed that chechen population have increased during last 10 years.
based on that data estimates of civilian casualties in 10 years were
some 10,000 or so.

>
> * More than 250 people went missing in Chechnya in the first half of
> 2003, according to a member of the pro-Moscow government

True. Mostly members of prorussian local administrations.

>
> * Another government official was quoted as saying that 1,178 people had
> been killed in the first nine months of 2002, and that 654 people had
> disappeared.

"Mothers of Russia" or "Memorial" data I guess. both are
Berezovsky commercial interprises. The guy simply do not
want to spend his rest of life in russian prison and pretend to be
political refugee in UK. How he can prove that, but
funding such antigovernment propaganda outlets as
Mothers of Russia", "Memorial" and "Democratic Russia" party?
Some idiots like you do believe. By the way "Mothers of Russia"
recently declared to become political party under the same
ridiculus title.

Michael


Michael

Michael Petukhov wrote:
> Stop SPAM > wrote in message >...
>>* The official figure for the number of Russian soldiers who died in
>>Chechnya between 1999 and mid-2003 is 4,705 - though the Soldiers'
>>Mothers of Russia organisation put the figure at 11,000.
....
>>* Their estimate for the first Chechen war, which lasted from 1994 -1996
>>is 14,000 dead, compared with the official 5,500. Civilian deaths in
>>this war are numbered in the tens of thousands.
>
>
> Now 14,000? wat 11,000 just a moment ago?

Michael, you're not paying attention. The 11,000 estimate is for the
second war (1999-2003), the 14,000 estimate is for the first war
(1994-1996). I suggest you read more carefully before you respond.

> "Mothers of Russia" or "Memorial" data I guess. both are
> Berezovsky commercial interprises. The guy simply do not
> want to spend his rest of life in russian prison and pretend to be
> political refugee in UK. How he can prove that, but
> funding such antigovernment propaganda outlets as
> Mothers of Russia", "Memorial" and "Democratic Russia" party?
> Some idiots like you do believe.

As opposed to your belief that the pro-government propaganda outlets are
providing you with real, unbiased information? Remember, Michael, that
even Russians think the title of "Pravda" is a joke.

Michael, I don't 'believe' either. As a more sophisticated user of media
in the West, I realize that all media outlets have one bias or another,
and the best way to try and discern the truth is to pay attention to all
media outlets, learn what their biases are, and then work on extracting
what reasonable 'truth' you can out of the conflicting information
presented.

"Mothers of Russia" presents different data than the official Russian
government. They have their own biases. Read both them and the official
Russian sources and perhaps take the average of both their figures;
perhaps this is closer to the truth.



In either case my original point holds. There have been heavy civilian
casualties in Chechnya regardless of whose figures you use, and most
sources cite heavier civilian casualties in Chechnya than in Iraq.

Add this to the facts:
* the Iraq population is tens of times bigger than the Chechnyian population
* Russia has less troops in Chechnya than the USA has in Iraq.

The result is the Chechnyians are suffering far higher civilian
casualties per Chechnyian civilian or per Russian soldier than the
Iraqis are.

"Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at their
neighbours."